Recently, you accused Governor Nasir el-Rufai of being ignorant of the needs of the state, will you shed more light on this?
Thank you very much for this question. My views on the governor are a critique of his style of governance in Kaduna state. We won the 2015 elections on the promise of Change and the bulk of our support was from the down-trodden, the have-nots, the masses and middle class. These people have suffered a lot in the last 16 years. They have been dehumanised, demoralised, alienated, exploited, oppressed and plundered by the PDP (Peoples Democratic Party) administration. Whoever comes into government should come with an agenda and I do not think that that agenda should start with taking actions that clearly would attract public condemnation, an attack against your person and your party and everybody who is associated with you.
I am deeply concerned about my own very state, because Kaduna was where I was born, is also where I lived, it is also where I worked and it is also where I won my election. So, if I am speaking about Kaduna, I am not speaking about Abuja. That is a place I know very well. So, if I spoke against the policies and programmes of the governor, it does not mean I hate him or does not mean that I abuse or insult him as he abused and insulted me. I simply want things to be made properly and also for the general public to know that people like us, whose philosophy, ideology and ideals are derived from the support we derive from the down-trodden and, I am not part of anything to undermine, subvert, oppress or exploit them. I am simply making my views known because I believe that is also his own style when he was in power and out of power. So, if he can speak out his mind against other people in government, when someone speaks his mind on him also, he should be able to accept and embrace it. There are a lot of things that our people need. Our people need socio-economic liberation. Our people need jobs. Our people need effective medicare. Our people need education. Our people need to be freed from economic bondage, which they have found themselves in. So, I think if you are in government, your priority should be how to make life better for people, from the position which you have met them before. And, his programmes and policies which he has started, is clearly alienating the people and attracting anger and condemnation on the whole of the party and anybody associated with the party. And, by my statement, I am drawing a line, that I am not going to be a part of that.
I do understand that we philosophically and ideologically differ on the stand that he is ultra-critic, conservative (and) reactionary who is devoid of any progressive leaning. I am an activist and also, a man with a political thinking aligned to the left-hand side of the political divide. This, I can understand, is the divergence of ideological thinking. He is a technocrat while I am an activist and a reformer. And technocrats see people from the points of financial and economic figures and we see people as human beings and as source of our power and are also, those on whom for the very reason through their consent, we are in office. Yes.
You said that you don’t agree with some of his policies. Which of these policies?
There are some of his policies, like the centralisation of accounts of the state, which is good. A state should not have so many accounts. The issue of separating local government accounts from the state government accounts is also good. It is something which, if I am in office, I am certainly going to do.
But since he has taken over office, he has alienated any person, most people who have made contributions to the success of the party. He knows all and he is Mr. All and the Most Intelligent man with the biggest brain in Nigeria and that is supposed not to be.
Now, if you are a leader, you need to listen to people and need to carry people along and that is how it is. If you are a governor of a state and you said you want to spend N1 billion on uniforms for pupils and N1 billion on the feeding of students and then, you have dilapidated schools that have no roofs and have no chairs then, there is the need for the people to ask you, what type of intelligence do you parade? So, I have seen this very fact that, many people who have helped us to be in power, right now, have been excluded from governance in Kaduna State and that is not how it is supposed to be.
Like I have said, I don’t hate him, not that I dislike him and, even those that worked against him during the elections, I have never aligned myself with any one of them and I never had any gubernatorial candidate. And, when he was given the ticket, we went along on campaigns and everything. But, perhaps, for what I know, the opinion polls in Kaduna state now, is very low.
You can’t know a man from his friends. You can’t know him from his enemies either. The friends will give you a glowing tribute of him and his enemies will give you, a mischievous interpretation of him. But, you can get the facts and truth about the man from people who are neither his friends nor his enemies. I can tell you this; as far as Kaduna state is concerned, running a government is not as easy as running a Twitter or Facebook Account. When you are running a government, you are dealing with human beings that have children, that have families and that have a future and you must not take people to be economic statistics. They are not. There is a difference between presiding over an Abuja in 2007 in Nigeria and, presiding over a state in 2015 in Nigeria. And, Nigeria of 2007 is different from Nigeria of 2015. In the last few years, we have seen things which we have never seen in our lives. All we are trying to do now is to see how those who voted for us and, even those who voted against us, how we can present to them a better alternative than the one which they have had.
Have you ever tried to discuss with the governor on how both of you can work together to move the state forward, rather than taking to Twitter and Social media?
You, as a journalist, I have known you for the past nine to 10 years even, when you were working with other media houses. When I saw your text messages, it was the same number and same with mine that I had given you 10 years ago and it is still the one I am using and I will continue to use it till the end of my life.
But, I can tell you that I don’t have the number of my state Governor and his numbers which I know don’t even function. And, I don’t know, if you dispute what I am going to tell you, please go and ask any journalist you have in Kaduna, whether he has his number or, he has his contact line. I don’t know anything about that. Right now, I am not involved and I am not engaged or, invited to any function in the state. And, all persons associated with me since after the campaigns, were institutionally excised out of governance. And, he was able to recognize and have shared positions to other Senators and other members; elected members but to me, he has not done that. I can tell you in clear terms that I do not have any contact with him and I don’t know who to talk to and how to even give him an advice.
But, by having this interview, I know that, if he doesn’t buy a hard copy of it, he will certainly get copies from people who will copy it and paste on their Twitter and Facebook accounts and we are ready to. You know people like me; jail-birds like me, we are used to attacks and counter-attacks and criticisms. And, if I spoke against his policies, if you check my records in Kaduna, I have also spoken against the policies of (ex-Governor) Makarfi. I have also spoken against the policies of (former Vice President) Namadi Sambo when he was governor. I spoke against the policies of (late Patrick) Yakowa and against Ramalan Yero- the last two governors. When Yakowa declared curfew in Kaduna, I came out and attacked him and he sent his men; his commissioners and whatever, to organise a press conference and they replied me back and we engaged in a war (of words). The last governor of Kaduna State, when he banned Okada I came out and attacked him and he also sent his commissioners to attack me. So, I am used to all these kind of things here.
As for Namadi Sambo, when he was the governor, nobody ever spoke against him like the way I did in Kaduna. I have a track record of taking on people who I believe, when they do things wrongly in my society, I certainly go into it. You cannot expect because I am in APC now, to keep quiet when things go wrong. I will never do that. Even if it is my father or mother, I will draw their attention to it. And, what I will never do is, I will never abuse or insult him, because I still consider him as an elder brother but critically, I will criticize his government and this is something that I have done in the past. I will do it now and I will do it tomorrow. Anybody who knows my history doesn’t know me as a person who keeps quiet over an issue.
We have taken on military dictators. As you see me here, I have been beaten by the military, beaten by the police and beaten by persons in my younger days. I have been to more than 50 Police stations and I have been to many military cells. I have been to many prisons in my life.
So, a person who has been in jail; in and out, when he talks, anything you are going to say, he will simply say it. I will certainly talk because, what he is doing, is not right and I am saying it.
I know, people say it that he is a radical and that he is stubborn but, he cannot be more stubborn than a man who was sentenced to life imprisonment and, has eaten, drank, slept and has lived a life with people from the underworld in prison. So, he can’t be more radical than I am.
So, I am saying in that sense that, we differ ideologically and that is what I am saying to you. I have seen a tweet; my Secretary drew my attention to a tweet which he made a snide remark about my afro and I am not the God that has denied him hair on his head. So, if he wants hair, he has two options; he either goes for hair transplant or, he can use wig or, simply try to do with a low cut. I have nothing wrong with that but I can tell you in every sense of the word that, he is not a person that I can ever abuse or insult, because, we are still in the same party- APC.
Don’t you think this will send the wrong signal to your supporters, thereby jeopardising the chances of your party, come 2019?
Aaah! It is going to send the right signal to them that, in APC, we don’t hide anything.
As we have spoken against those who are not from our party, we can also speak against those who are on our side. And, I can tell you that people in Kaduna know what is wrong and what is right. I think the biggest achievement of a politician and his greatest asset is, he should be able to live in peace and harmony with his people. You should be able to attend weddings, naming ceremonies, burials and should be able to walk freely among your people without watching your back. If you now move against them, certainly, you will need thousands of policemen to protect you. Anytime you come to my house; I live with my people. I am not the state governor that has to have tanks and thousands of security men outside. I live and walk at peace with my people and that is what matters. I think if you want to get the opinion of a person, of a man, you don’t get it online. You simply go to where that person lives and ask his neighbours, or in his ward. Go to the market, churches and mosques, to event centres, youth centres and ask them whether this person is good or bad. What you get from there is a fair assessment of a person and I am not afraid if, after this interview, you go to all my wards and go to Kaduna or, any gathering of people and ask; if between me Shehu Sani and el-Rufai which one do you support and, I am telling you if the opinion tilts to his own very side, I will cease these criticisms which I have started.
A lot of people feel that you are attacking Governor el-Rufai because of your aspirations for 2019. How true is that?
(Laughter) It is unfortunate, how can I start talking of 2019 when we are just in 2015. 2019 belongs to God. People say I am attacking him because I want to be governor; I think those are his supporters that are saying all of these. If I had wanted to be governor when I came out to contest, he couldn’t have become a governor and he knew it very well. I for one, Shehu Sani; I can perform ablution and pick my Holy Quran and say that I did not pay delegates to vote for me. And, I don’t know whether anybody can do that.
Go to all the delegates in Kaduna State and ask how much did Shehu Sani give you to give him the primary ticket? Ask them, nothing but my own very principles, my own ideals and the very fact that they know who I am. So, I am now a Senator, by God’s grace, I am here to deliver to my people and whatever comes tomorrow, is left for God.
There are thousand, millions of people who want to be councilors in their lives but have never been able to do so. There are also many people who want to be Senators and they will never be. And again, there are others who want to be governors and can never be. So, if God takes you to this position, you should be grateful to Him and be good to people and also, leave a legacy whereby, when your children and grandchildren move, people will say; this man was a good man. This man, your father or grandfather, had done a very good job.
And, I will assure you very well that, there are also people saying that he wants to be President and that is the reason why he is bringing people from all parts of Nigeria to give them appointments here in Kaduna for them to serve as his own campaign coordinators. People can also see that and go on twitter. You will never see ‘Shehu Sani for Governor,’ but you will see ‘el-Rufai for President.’
As far as I am concerned, I am telling you that I don’t have any grouse against him becoming of what he wants to be. All I want is that, you have to know that you are presiding over human beings that have suffered enough and that you do not add to their hardship. I do not mean anything harmful or bad to him. I feel pained; in some parts of Kaduna today, you will see groups of people sitting down and saying they regretted voting for APC and even some of them came out to be praising Ramalan Yero and other PDP people. It gives me a lot of pain.
There is no way I would like to see my people saying that if they had known, they wouldn’t have voted for us because, we came in and that we were oppressing them, denying them, demolishing their houses and all that we said we were coming to do, we refused to do. Go and see, there are people who destroyed Kaduna State; who led us to where we are and plunged us into N70billion debt. If we had started on a good note, such people cannot even move in public now. But, go and see what is happening inside Kaduna here; see the PDP people are being hailed on the streets. How can you, for goodness sake, say this is what needs to be done?
You are managing people and not managing social media accounts. We should know and that is why I am saying that, I am simply doing that for things to be better. If things are better, certainly, you will never hear me speak. I will be able to come out and defend what it is. I will defend his government, because it is a common ship all of us are in now, if it is bad, all of us are going to sink. So, my sister, what you will do is, go round and take an opinion poll on what he is doing and what I am saying and you will be able to judge.
But, people who simply live very far away from Kaduna have never known what is happening in Kaduna and they only believe what you tell them. They only depend on postings from lackeys, satraps and satellites and running dogs who will simply post to launder somebody’s image, you can never get the truth from them. Daily Independent
