Former Deputy Governor of Lagos State, Sen. Koforowola Bucknor-Akerele, speaks with TOBI AWORINDE on her falling-out with the National Leader of the All Progressives Congress, Asiwaju Bola Tinubu, and other issues
Why have you not been active in the Nigerian political space nowadays?
I think I am very active in politics these days. In fact, you will see that there are chairs outside and people are waiting to come for a meeting.
But many Nigerians believe you are no longer in the political limelight.
I don’t know what you mean; you say I am absent in the limelight. I don’t think so at all. I am very much active in my party. But if I am not in the newspapers every day, it is not my fault; I will not go and call the press to interview me. I think it is for the press to come and ask me for an interview and not the other way round.
What role do you play in the party?
I am not in an executive position in the party. But I am in the elders committee of the party.
The PDP does not seem to have recovered from its defeat in the 2015 presidential election, especially with the endless blame game by party members. Do you think former President Goodluck Jonathan is truly responsible for the current position of the party?
No, I don’t think he is entirely to blame. I think what happened to the party was a collective responsibility. Also, I would say, apart from that, one should also put a searchlight on the Independent National Electoral Commission.
What kind of searchlight?
If one really analyses what happened, especially in the northern states, one would realise that — I am not necessarily saying that Jonathan would have won, but I am saying that although everyone was saying the election was free and fair, I do not believe that the entire election was free and fair in some places. Yes, in some places but in other places, definitely not.
Do you agree with some of the party members who think Jonathan was not the right candidate and that the party should have fielded a Northerner?
On reflection, maybe… yes.
When you say there are others to blame for the party’s defeat, what exactly do you mean?
I am saying it is a collective responsibility of members of the party, especially the national executive of the party, who took certain decisions and left much to be desired.
Since losing the election last year, a large number of PDP members have defected to the All Progressives Congress….
I call those ones fly-by-night politicians. They will fly to whatever party they feel is winning and if the APC loses tomorrow, they all fly (away) and if the PDP is winning, they will all fly back to the PDP. I do not believe that those are politicians that one can really rely on.
Some of those that defected from the PDP said they did so because of the image of the party, based on the revelations from the ongoing corruption probes….
What image? Have they probed the APC? I think they would find worse dirt in the APC, if they try to probe the APC. But since they are the party in power, they can probe the PDP and not probe themselves. To be honest with you, if we are to take the fight against corruption seriously, I think (President Muhammadu) Buhari should start with his own party.
Are you saying the ongoing probes are one-sided?
Yes, definitely.
What condition would push you to defect from the PDP?
There is no reason whatsoever why I should defect from the PDP.
There are lingering sentiments that your defection from the Alliance for Democracy while serving as the Lagos State Deputy Governor under Tinubu was a betrayal of his trust. Did you betray him?
I think it was Tinubu who betrayed the trust of the AD. First of all, the AD was formed without Tinubu. Tinubu was not around when we formed the AD. But Tinubu wanted to take over the AD and I believe that is the betrayal of trust. In the end, what happened? The founding members of the AD had to leave the AD for Tinubu because he hijacked the party. We, the founding members of the AD, had to leave the AD for Tinubu. People like Ayo Adebanjo, the late Ganiyu Dawodu; everybody left the AD in the end.
At what point did he hijack the party?
The process of hijacking started almost immediately we took office because he did call me and said to me that he thought we should take over the party from the elders, who were the founders of the party. In fact, that was the basis of my disagreement with Tinubu and from that day onwards, I became his enemy, because I did not agree with him.
Are you saying even though you were supposed to be working closely together as governor and deputy governor, there was discord because you did not agree with him?
No, I didn’t agree with him that we should take over the party from the founders. I believed that we should face governance and that the founders of the party should continue to run the party.
Is this why you defected from the AD to the Democratic Peoples Alliance?
Yes.
You have repeatedly said you were not impeached as the deputy governor. What really happened at that time?
The situation became unbearable and in fact, there were all sorts of untrue allegations being levelled against me.
What sort of allegations?
I can’t even remember all of them, but all sorts. There was even one time that Tinubu said I was the spy in the National Democratic Coalition and this was an organisation which I was very much a part of and for which I risked my life in the struggle for democracy. It was all very hurtful, all these allegations, and my family felt that what he was trying to do was, in fact, to tarnish my name and tarnish my family name. I was asked to resign by my family when they saw that he was levelling all sorts of false allegations against me in order to tarnish my name.
How did you then leave the office?
I wrote a letter of resignation.
Are you saying you resigned and it is not that you were impeached?
I resigned as deputy governor.
But the Lagos State House of Assembly claims that you were impeached.
Those people who are in the House of Assembly, I doubt whether they were out of school at that time. How many years ago was that? They were not conversant with what actually happened. I think the (then) Speaker of the House of Assembly, Dr. (Olorunnimbe) Mamora, has come out to confirm that, in fact, I resigned. I saw that somebody interviewed him in one of the newspapers and he confirmed my resignation.
The House has reversed the impeachment of your successor, Femi Pedro, who was embroiled in similar controversy. What was your reaction on discovering that?
I don’t know the circumstances of Femi Pedro’s impeachment and what he was supposed to have done to have asked for mercy. I wouldn’t like to comment on his so-called apology or whatever it was.
Do you agree with the PDP that Tinubu is in control of the House of Assembly?
Yes, it is true, because I think, most of the time, they don’t have proper primaries or anything like that. It is Tinubu who picks who does what, who actually contests for what seat, who gets what as commissioner and all the rest of it.
But some would argue that the same applies in the PDP, considering the fact that in the last elections, there was discord over the primaries, especially the governorship.
There might have been discord, but I don’t think anybody in the PDP as such sits down and says, ‘You are going to go for Constituency I in Ikeja’ or whatever it is. Normally, what causes the discord quite often is that, sometimes, people feel that the primaries were not organised in a transparent or fair way. That is what causes the discord mainly. But I don’t think anybody actually sits down and places people like it is being done (in the APC).
Do you maintain any relationship with Tinubu?
No, I don’t have any relationship with him whatsoever.
Do you have any regrets as deputy governor with regard to the stance you took at that time?
I have no regrets about the stance I took at that time, but I regret agreeing to be Tinubu’s deputy governor. In fact, when the late Papa (Solanke) Onasanya phoned me and asked me to be Tinubu’s deputy governor, I categorically told him that I would not want to be his deputy; that if it had been the late Wahab Dosunmu who had won, then I wouldn’t mind being his deputy, because he was a gentleman. But I didn’t think that Tinubu was a gentleman.
Do you think your political clout would have been more if you had stayed in the same party with Tinubu?
I don’t think so at all.
Why not?
I don’t know what you mean by my political clout. I think right now, I would say that I am one of the best known female politicians in this country, not only in Lagos State but nationally. Thus, I don’t think my political clout would have been more if I had been with Tinubu.
Yemi Osinbajo, who is said to have been a close associate of Tinubu, having served in Tinubu’s government at the same time you did, is today the Vice-President. Do you think Osinbajo’s loyalty paid off for him?
I don’t know whether it has paid off for him or not. I don’t know whether it is a question of loyalty or it was somebody who was in the right place at the right time and who could be used by the party.
Tinubu, during the campaigns last year, confirmed a lot of the speculations that was going round that he wanted to be Vice-President by saying he gave up his ambition for Osinbajo for the good of the party. Do you see the decision as a selfless gesture?
I don’t think he had much (of a) choice actually — I am not a member of their party but from what I understand, they couldn’t have had a Muslim-Muslim ticket and that was why he could not have been able to realise his ambition of being vice-president. In fact, right from day one from the time he became governor, he had wanted to become vice-president and this was also one of the causes of friction between him and I. He intimated his desire to me and I felt that it was premature, since we had not even been sworn in when he informed me that he wanted to become vice-president at some time. I felt it was premature and that we should face governance and leave the elders, who were the founders of the party, to continue with the party (decisions) while we faced governance.
Did he ever speak about wanting to become president?
From vice-president to president is just one step.
As a former executive member of the pan-Yoruba socio-political group, Afenifere, how do you think it is faring, looking back on the events that led to the division in the group?
Afenifere was really the basis of the AD and the division came with Tinubu hijacking the AD and also trying to form his Afenifere Renewal Group. But Afenifere is a very resilient group — I mean the real Afenifere, I am not talking about the one formed by Tinubu. These are people who are, I would say, are ancient war horses. They have been in the struggle for a long time, since the days of (Chief Obafemi) Awolowo and, usually, they train their people very well in Awo’s tradition. Thus, I don’t think that Afenifere is going to die out or anything like that.
With the revelations of discrepancies in the 2016 budget, do you think the President is doing enough to confront the controversy?
I don’t know whether he is confronting the controversy or not. I am not in the government, but I think it is rather a shame that for the first time in Nigeria’s history, we are having such controversies over the budget. It doesn’t speak well of those in government at the moment.
What are your thoughts on the revelations of the corruption probes and the attention Buhari is giving to recovering loots?
A lot of the revelations appear to be scandalous but, of course, until those who are indicted are taken to court and convicted, I would not want to put my judgment on anyone.
A former PDP governorship aspirant in Lagos State, Musiliu Obanikoro, was one of those named in the $2.1bn arms scandal. Do you think he should be probed like other suspected beneficiaries of the funds?
It is up to those that are probing to decide whether he should be probed or not. It has nothing to do with me.
What do you think of the sweeping victory of the APC during last year’s elections, especially at the governorship level?
I don’t know what you mean by ‘the sweeping victory.’ There are 36 states in Nigeria. Out of the 36, the PDP won 13. If you divide 36, that is almost half.
What are your thoughts on the Supreme Court judgments affirming the victories of several of the PDP governors, especially since the Appeal Court had overturned their elections in a number of cases?
The Supreme Court is the supreme arbiter of law in Nigeria. We have highly respectable, experienced people in that court and I believe that those judgments should be respected. I am rather worried about some of the comments that have been made, especially by the members of the APC, because it is, in fact, denigrating our courts and it is expunging the integrity of those highly respectable people in the Supreme Court. I don’t think we should be making a mockery of our judicial system.
What is your reaction to comments by Buhari and the Chairman of the Presidential Advisory Committee on Anti-Corruption, Professor Itse Sagay (SAN), claiming that the judiciary has been compromised and should be purged?
The judiciary has a means of investigating itself and I think that once the executive wants to start meddling in that arm of government, we are going to be in for problems. I don’t think it is the business of the executive to start meddling in the affairs of the judiciary. They are a separate arm of government, according to our constitution, and I think our constitution should be obeyed by everybody, including the executive.
In Lagos State, the PDP won a number of seats in the legislature, locally and nationally. Do you think that the APC’s chances of retaining power are likely in 2019?
I doubt it very much. If you go into the streets, I think you will find that people are fed up with the APC government. We have not really seen much of what they have done, except harass people, destroy markets, build new ones, drive away the people who were in the old markets and give them (new markets) out at exorbitant sums that no one can afford. They have not really done anything for the masses. They are not building houses. The health system is appalling and so many people are dying, simply because they don’t have money. Therefore, I believe that the people in Lagos State are already crying and that is why you saw the PDP won quite a few seats and we intend to win even more seats. Certainly, in the council elections, which are coming up very soon, you will see the PDP will come out even stronger.
What do you think of Governor Akinwunmi Ambode’s administration so far?
I don’t know what he has done so far. We have heard that he is lighting up Lagos, but that’s about it. There seems to be all sorts of people in various coloured uniforms on the streets, harassing people, causing traffic hold-ups, whereas they should be clearing the traffic. I am hoping he will get his act together and we will start seeing some improvement.
What is your assessment of the government of Ambode’s predecessor, Babatunde Fashola?
I don’t think there is much difference between the two. The only thing that Fashola had going for him was that he was planting flowers and he beautified the place. Otherwise, I really cannot pinpoint what he did to improve the lives of the people in Lagos.
Do you have any faith that his current office as minister will be of benefit to the masses?
I cannot say, I don’t know. Let’s wait and see.
What do you think of former President Olusegun Obasanjo leaving the PDP to associate with the Buhari government?
I don’t know whether Obasanjo is associating himself with Buhari’s government or not. I know he left the PDP because he was not happy with what was happening in the PDP and, obviously, as an elder statesman, he felt that they were not taking his advice. If you give somebody advice and they don’t take your advice, then you distance yourself from that person and I think that is what Obasanjo did.
Are you saying his leaving the PDP was justified?
I don’t know. I think it is up to him to decide whether it was justified or not.
What can the PDP do to end its continuous leadership tussles and regroup in preparation for 2019?
There is leadership tussle in all parties. Are you saying there is no leadership tussle in the APC? Of course, there is still an ongoing leadership tussle. Look at what is happening with the Senate President and the Speaker (of the House of Representatives); that tussle is still ongoing. That is the nature of politics; that is the dynamics of politics. I don’t believe that it is going to affect the PDP more adversely than it has now. I believe the PDP will get its act together and move forward. Punch
